Karen, I love this so much! A question about one of the links: What is the book you wrote that wrestles "how we might break free of all this damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t lunacy?"
Karen - thank you for your wise words. Women also need to stop saying “sorry” about everything as if it’s all their fault and if someone cuts you off while you’re talking, tell them that you were talking before they interrupted you and finish. There’s such a long list of unlearning what we were taught as girls. Great article!
JUDY! How are you classmate and friend? Yes, sorry is the worst habit. Also, automatically taking the blame. "It's all my fault. I shouldn't have [fill in the blank] when you [fill in the blank.]
Former Mayor Vera Katz told me she had to work three times as hard to win the vote of women because the all female focus groups suggested a woman in power, get this, "wasn't nice." That was data enough for me to avoid the "nice" trap.
Sheila, I have absolutely no doubt that this is true. It's not always men who are the shitheads. A lot of the time its women policing the behavior of other women.
Ugh, yes to this. I saw this just recently in a discussion of Candice Bergen. I heard someone say to their young daughter once, "be sweet." And I wondered if they ever said it to their son.
I feel like there are so many icky words like "sweet" and "nice" that are sort of loose synonyms for "kind," which every child regardless of gender should be taught. But it's doubtful any boy is told to be sweet. (Because UGH)
Be Kind is the new Be Nice. My best friend refuses to stop saying “he’s nice” or “she’s nice” (they nice?) to describe what a person is like. Nice, as I’ve tried ramming down her throat a million times, tells me nothing about a person. I used to watch my two older sisters, both high school homecoming queens, act nice by way of speaking baby talk in front of other people, ie, non family members. I knew from the age of three that I was not a particularly nice kid mostly because I couldn’t stand the “nice girls” in my age group. They always, most of them, seemed nice strictly for the purpose of being popular or worse, they really were nice (as in not angry) because they had a nice parent at home who routinely did nice things for and with them. Or, they were just dumb. Generally, I was only nice to other people when I felt sorry for them, like our elementary school janitor who appeared lonely and sad. But being that kind of nice didn’t require any action, just feelings of heartbreak.
In my twenties I worked for a guy who was married to Miss Universe (not kidding). Once she chastised me for being easy on someone for reasons I forget but I’ll never forget what she said to me; “What? Do you want everyone to like you?”. I was taken aback and might have said, “I don’t like you, you’re just fun to look at”. I remained nicely quiet because I was on her payroll. Later, Miss Universe would receive a prank phone call from me since I possessed the most valuable Rolodex in the history of Hollywood. Ha ha, Miss Universe…I got my two cents in after all.
You're getting at something here -- like, being "nice" is in a lot of cases transactional. We're being "nice" in order to be liked in order to get something. Mary, you're one of my favorite people, even if you don't talk baby talk.
Ha! If someone really loves auctions and finds them energizing and rewarding and blah blah blah, they (she) should totally go for it. But you know, it's usually the mom who has the hardest time saying no, and who wants to be thought "nice" who gets roped into it.
it took me a while, but i finally figured out the "being nice" was not the same as being "kind." for me, being nice tossed aside boundaries, led to exhaustion, and saw myself as less worthy than the other person of care. being kind or a "bitch" (how they may perceive me) means i am allowing a friend/family member/acquaintance to sort through their life, trusting them to make their own choices.
Exactly. "Nice" and "kind" are not the synonyms we take them to be. Sometimes people think we're not nice when we exhibit boundaries, or fail to go along to get along.
Some men are, and some women are, too. The great unsaid of feminism is that a lot of women don't support other women. And there's always the generational divide, where older women think younger women should behave a certain way. It's a thorny issue.
You're totally right. But you have to admit, women and men are held to different standards when it comes to being agreeable, cooperative, and "pleasant."
I love that you asked the asker, “Why does it matter?” These are all women who made the world a better place by the work they did; whether others perceived them as “nice” (a moving target of a concept if ever there was one) is immaterial to later generations, because what’s endured, and continues to add value to the world, is the work to which they devoted their lives. All the people who criticized those women are or will be long gone, as will all the fleeting perceptions of their “niceness,” as will all of us; would that we could cultivate a world where women are encouraged to focus on their artistic, intellectual, and social contributions as much as we are encouraged to mind our manners and smile. Thank you for this, Karen.
I will tell you, as a child my mother moved us around...NY, LA, Santa Cruz. I went to five schools in six years. Being nice was my lifeline. It was a skill I had to embrace in order to speed up friendships, to combat the worst thing, being lonely. Luckily, it comes easy for me. I will say, being 'nice' as a kid, and certainly as a teenager involved some erasure. As a grown-ass woman, nice can look like walking away. You don't have to like me, and I don't have to care. (Well KK, you have to like me because I love you!) And, yet, most often being 'nice' or kind or respectful or engaged or feeling joy in my pals company or out and about in the world doesn't cost me. I think being 'nice' keeps me in integrity with myself.
Claire Messud talked about this in terms of her protagonist in THE WOMAN UPSTAIRS. Readers said she wasn't likable and Messud said, "We don't read to find friends. We read to find life in all its possibilities." (Or something like that)
Thanks for this piece. I am forever getting into trouble for speaking my mind...having an opinion that differs from the group (and not being afraid to say it), telling a friend I don't want to listen to her vent about her divorce for hours if she's not going to ask me one question about how I am doing, asking (nicely) the manager of my health club why people are allowed to listen to music in the sauna, but I am not allowed to ask them to turn it down. Her response was that I was a "cranky, old, white woman." I have little respect for people who let others speak for them.
Nice but firm. That's an excellent strategy, and something that's easy to remember in the moment. So often, we (I) prioritize niceness over firmness. By which I think you mean setting good boundaries?
Karen, thank you so much! I really love your work and recommend it often. Hope you're having a terrific summer.
Best,
crystal
Karen, I love this so much! A question about one of the links: What is the book you wrote that wrestles "how we might break free of all this damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t lunacy?"
Thanks, Crystal! The book is called Yeah, No. Not Happening. And here's the impressively long link! https://www.amazon.com/Yeah-No-Not-Happening-Self-Improvement/dp/0062945548/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.d7pctwc6OzwMA2bzhchUsqdmZkvTxVV2cvq1LM05fVs.GO9UdT14PgqQoR3RfoBiqvc1tsuNNgW1pcZSXhZC9nQ&qid=1718121602&sr=8-1
Karen - thank you for your wise words. Women also need to stop saying “sorry” about everything as if it’s all their fault and if someone cuts you off while you’re talking, tell them that you were talking before they interrupted you and finish. There’s such a long list of unlearning what we were taught as girls. Great article!
JUDY! How are you classmate and friend? Yes, sorry is the worst habit. Also, automatically taking the blame. "It's all my fault. I shouldn't have [fill in the blank] when you [fill in the blank.]
Former Mayor Vera Katz told me she had to work three times as hard to win the vote of women because the all female focus groups suggested a woman in power, get this, "wasn't nice." That was data enough for me to avoid the "nice" trap.
Sheila, I have absolutely no doubt that this is true. It's not always men who are the shitheads. A lot of the time its women policing the behavior of other women.
Oscar nailed it ~ "Be yourself, everyone else is taken."
Ugh, yes to this. I saw this just recently in a discussion of Candice Bergen. I heard someone say to their young daughter once, "be sweet." And I wondered if they ever said it to their son.
I feel like there are so many icky words like "sweet" and "nice" that are sort of loose synonyms for "kind," which every child regardless of gender should be taught. But it's doubtful any boy is told to be sweet. (Because UGH)
Be Kind is the new Be Nice. My best friend refuses to stop saying “he’s nice” or “she’s nice” (they nice?) to describe what a person is like. Nice, as I’ve tried ramming down her throat a million times, tells me nothing about a person. I used to watch my two older sisters, both high school homecoming queens, act nice by way of speaking baby talk in front of other people, ie, non family members. I knew from the age of three that I was not a particularly nice kid mostly because I couldn’t stand the “nice girls” in my age group. They always, most of them, seemed nice strictly for the purpose of being popular or worse, they really were nice (as in not angry) because they had a nice parent at home who routinely did nice things for and with them. Or, they were just dumb. Generally, I was only nice to other people when I felt sorry for them, like our elementary school janitor who appeared lonely and sad. But being that kind of nice didn’t require any action, just feelings of heartbreak.
In my twenties I worked for a guy who was married to Miss Universe (not kidding). Once she chastised me for being easy on someone for reasons I forget but I’ll never forget what she said to me; “What? Do you want everyone to like you?”. I was taken aback and might have said, “I don’t like you, you’re just fun to look at”. I remained nicely quiet because I was on her payroll. Later, Miss Universe would receive a prank phone call from me since I possessed the most valuable Rolodex in the history of Hollywood. Ha ha, Miss Universe…I got my two cents in after all.
You're getting at something here -- like, being "nice" is in a lot of cases transactional. We're being "nice" in order to be liked in order to get something. Mary, you're one of my favorite people, even if you don't talk baby talk.
OK. I am going to try to nuture my inner bitch. This was me
“someone has to chair the school auction”
Ha! If someone really loves auctions and finds them energizing and rewarding and blah blah blah, they (she) should totally go for it. But you know, it's usually the mom who has the hardest time saying no, and who wants to be thought "nice" who gets roped into it.
it took me a while, but i finally figured out the "being nice" was not the same as being "kind." for me, being nice tossed aside boundaries, led to exhaustion, and saw myself as less worthy than the other person of care. being kind or a "bitch" (how they may perceive me) means i am allowing a friend/family member/acquaintance to sort through their life, trusting them to make their own choices.
thanks for the reminder.
Exactly. "Nice" and "kind" are not the synonyms we take them to be. Sometimes people think we're not nice when we exhibit boundaries, or fail to go along to get along.
We should treat everyone equally regardless of their gender. How we do the "equally part" is what matters.
That's because some men are assholes. ;<)>
A++ on that emoji!
Some men are, and some women are, too. The great unsaid of feminism is that a lot of women don't support other women. And there's always the generational divide, where older women think younger women should behave a certain way. It's a thorny issue.
You're totally right. But you have to admit, women and men are held to different standards when it comes to being agreeable, cooperative, and "pleasant."
I love that you asked the asker, “Why does it matter?” These are all women who made the world a better place by the work they did; whether others perceived them as “nice” (a moving target of a concept if ever there was one) is immaterial to later generations, because what’s endured, and continues to add value to the world, is the work to which they devoted their lives. All the people who criticized those women are or will be long gone, as will all the fleeting perceptions of their “niceness,” as will all of us; would that we could cultivate a world where women are encouraged to focus on their artistic, intellectual, and social contributions as much as we are encouraged to mind our manners and smile. Thank you for this, Karen.
I will tell you, as a child my mother moved us around...NY, LA, Santa Cruz. I went to five schools in six years. Being nice was my lifeline. It was a skill I had to embrace in order to speed up friendships, to combat the worst thing, being lonely. Luckily, it comes easy for me. I will say, being 'nice' as a kid, and certainly as a teenager involved some erasure. As a grown-ass woman, nice can look like walking away. You don't have to like me, and I don't have to care. (Well KK, you have to like me because I love you!) And, yet, most often being 'nice' or kind or respectful or engaged or feeling joy in my pals company or out and about in the world doesn't cost me. I think being 'nice' keeps me in integrity with myself.
Claire Messud talked about this in terms of her protagonist in THE WOMAN UPSTAIRS. Readers said she wasn't likable and Messud said, "We don't read to find friends. We read to find life in all its possibilities." (Or something like that)
Brava Ms. Karbo! Brava to Team Prickly!
Great that I got this email today!
I will now reread all 3 books-
Katherine, Coco, & Georgia!!!!
My bibles!!!
Love your wit & insights!
Speaking truth to power...
Thanks for this piece. I am forever getting into trouble for speaking my mind...having an opinion that differs from the group (and not being afraid to say it), telling a friend I don't want to listen to her vent about her divorce for hours if she's not going to ask me one question about how I am doing, asking (nicely) the manager of my health club why people are allowed to listen to music in the sauna, but I am not allowed to ask them to turn it down. Her response was that I was a "cranky, old, white woman." I have little respect for people who let others speak for them.
Nice but firm. That's an excellent strategy, and something that's easy to remember in the moment. So often, we (I) prioritize niceness over firmness. By which I think you mean setting good boundaries?